Words fail me. What is this country coming to?

[Adam]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1029526/How-women-equal-men-Firms-reveal-gender-pay-gap-CAN-discriminate-men.html

Harriet Harman today hit back at criticism over her controversial new equality bill that could discriminate against white men.

Ms Harman said 'you don't get progress if there isn't a bit of a push forward".
The move is designed to thrust more female and ethnic minorities into senior posts.
Harriet Harman's new Equality Bill will also force firms to reveal the salary gap between their male and female staff to highlight how women have slipped behind and shame employers into bringing them into line.

She said: 'Most women are going out to work and they are just as committed to their jobs - the money that they earn is important to the household budget so they should be paid fairly.
'Yet listen to this figure - if you are a woman working part-time you get 40% less per hour on average than a man working full-time'
Companies are to be encouraged to discriminate in favour of women and black job candidates.

The Bill was hit by an immediate backlash from business leaders last night.

This is the kind of shit that makes me want to leave this country.

Say it was like this:

If you've got two men, one gay and one straight, both equally qualified - give the job to the straight man.

If you've got a disabled man and a man that's not disabled, give the job to the man that's not disabled.

There would be outcry - and rightly so!

[Peccant]

I don't agree with positive discrimination, I think it is counter productive and over compensating.
I am a woman but I wouldn't want to be given a job just because I am a woman, I want to earn the post. I would feel patronised otherwise.
It is all very well respecing diversity but what about respecting a business right to have fully competent staff?
I think the reason so many government departments are the lumbering inefficient leviathans that they are is because of diversity policies such as this.

[Knickers71uk]

I think there should be equal pay, for all who do the job. Men shouldn't be paid more than women doing the same job, its not right or fair.

[Peccant]

I think there should be equal pay, for all who do the job. Men shouldn't be paid more than women doing the same job, its not right or fair.

Yes I agree with that part, but that's a seperate issue. :) I was reading about this in the news yesterday and it was saying that their reasoning for the pay gap is that women don't go for higher paid jobs or work as long a week because of family responsibilities.
I sure as hell put in my hours and have no intention of popping out any sprogs, so where is the equality there?

[Fenella]

Yes I agree with that part, but that's a seperate issue. :) I was reading about this in the news yesterday and it was saying that their reasoning for the pay gap is that women don't go for higher paid jobs or work as long a week because of family responsibilities.
I sure as hell put in my hours and have no intention of popping out any sprogs, so where is the equality there?

I think what they're saying is true to a large extent. I've worked for large companies and there is no pay discrimination there. People were on grades where the salaries were set so there was no room for discrepancies. It's true to say that the women were generally secretaries or clerical workers rather than managers but that's because they didn't stay long enough to build a career or they didn't want the responsibility. They simply didn't apply for the managerial jobs. Those women who were managers were treated exactly the same as the male ones.

[Fenella]

I think there should be equal pay, for all who do the job. Men shouldn't be paid more than women doing the same job, its not right or fair.


That's right but they often don't do the same jobs. If people work on a production line or something doing the same thing they should get paid the same, but women to tend to prefer different jobs to men. Women seem to like being secretaries and men don't. Women don't tend to want to be engineers, some do but most don't. I don't know any women who have done the same job as a man but been paid less. This so-called 40% gap can be explained that way.

[Peccant]

I agree with you that some women don't go for the high powered jobs, like I said. But what about the ones that do?
I have worked for large corporations for ten years now and I find that I am often doing the same job as the men in my team - alot of the time more efficiently (who says men don't gossip - oh sorry when men do it is "networking") and getting paid alot less. I never get to find out the actual discrepancy because the pay ratings are not published, there are no "benchmarks" to compare yourself to etc.

[Fenella]

I agree with you that some women don't go for the high powered jobs, like I said. But what about the ones that do?
I have worked for large corporations for ten years now and I find that I am often doing the same job as the men in my team - alot of the time more efficiently (who says men don't gossip - oh sorry when men do it is "networking") and getting paid alot less. I never get to find out the actual discrepancy because the pay ratings are not published, there are no "benchmarks" to compare yourself to etc.

Many smaller companies do have their own pay structure or they just pay someone what they feel they're worth. Generally though, I do think that women do not want high powered jobs as much, and that does explain the discrepancies.

In order for Harriet Harman to prove her point she has to specify jobs where men and women are doing exactly the same thing - maybe shop assistants for example, and prove that they are paid different rates in a specific setting. It's no good her banging on about vague differences which could be explained in another way.

As for positive discrimination involving gay people and people from ethnic minorities, it's just nonsense. As long as there are laws which differentiate between different groups, which are not based on their ability to do a job, there will never be indifference to someone's sexual orientation or colour, and that's what needed in this country.

[Dongle]

In order for Harriet Harman to prove her point she has to specify jobs where men and women are doing exactly the same thing - maybe shop assistants for example, and prove that they are paid different rates in a specific setting. It's no good her banging on about vague differences which could be explained in another way.
Recent story in the Guardian...

Councils face £2.8bn bill for equal pay (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jan/02/uk.topstories3)

although I think this relates to past not present practice